I worked with Shahid Butt at Charter Cable years ago, a smart, congenial fellow and accomplished marketer. As I posted interviews from my swing through the Islamic world, and pointed remarks about Pakistan’s role in the emergence of the Taliban, he offered some unique insights. I talked with Shahid over Skype one night from my guesthouse room in Kabul. We began by talking about Pakistan’s role in supporting the mujeheddin jihad against the Soviet invasion in the 1980’s. The interview was transcribed by “War: The Afterparty” book project editor and intern Anaka Allen.

Shahid: In Pakistan right around that time, you could rent AK47s by the hour, there were just so many weapons. There was a military parade in one of the Arab countries; I think it may have been Qatar. As part of that military parade there was these weapons that were on display and as the U.S. was there, you know they were invited.

Brian: Sure. And they were like, those are our fucking weapons. [laughs]

S: And they were trying to figure out where did these come from? And they realized, oh shit, this is stuff that was supposed to go to Pakistan to go over next door to fight the Soviets. And when they found that trail, all of a sudden in Rawalpindi, there was a huge explosion where the munitions dump, in the garrison where people were living. This had to be, Brian, in 1981, yeah. And so people were just syphoning off weapons and selling them to anybody else.

B: You put that many weapons out in the world over so many years, and so many conflicts and the world just becomes a much more violent place.

S: WWII was the only war after which the factories that were converted to make wartime stuff, didn’t go back to making what they were making before. So, now you have this huge production capacity making stuff and if you want to keep people employed you have to sell the stuff and then they have to use the stuff; that’s why we will have wars, otherwise it’s jobs.

Here’s what so bizarre for someone like me, and you know, being a marketing guy, I try to break it down, I try to re-orient the issue. As I see it, we have a branding problem. Because if you look at the brand of Pakistan, the white part of the flag was put there on purpose, I think it’s two-fifths of the flag, to represent that there are minorities in the country who are equal citizens. And what we have basically done is, we fuck with all kinds of — pick a minority, we fuck with it now. So that’s off-brand. If you look at our version of the declaration of independence, I think there’s 230 words in there, and 40% of the words talk about protecting minorities and, again, we’re fucking that up. So, you got that issue off-brand. Second, if you say that the country was created to help the Muslims of India achieve economic prosperity, it was an economic need for a group of people, it wasn’t a religious need. And we’ve moved off of that and become this Islamic state, which is not what we’re supposed to have been. We were supposed to have been a place where the Muslims of India could have economic equality and prosperity and get access to jobs and bank loans and all that kind of stuff, education, so we fuck that up. The third thing is, if you even do convert their thinking to, hey, we’re an Islamic state, the concepts of Islam, you know we’re supposed to, let’s say, follow the teachings of the prophet. The prophet married a business woman, right? An educated, working woman, and if that’s supposed to be who we’re emulating then what the fuck? [laughs] Why do more women not have opportunity to go to school, to work in the workplace? So, we’re off target there.

B: Is that a more of a cultural, national thing than a theological thing?

S: You look at Saudi Arabia, they’re the worse at it. Because at least we’ve had a prime minister who is a woman, at least we’ve had women in parliament. Part of it is cultural, pre-Islam, and part of it is another way to keep minorities down. Women are minorities, let’s keep them down. Number two, if you look at the religion, the first interaction, according to tradition, that the prophet had with Gabriel; the first words that were said to the prophet were, “Read.” And the prophet said, “I can’t read.” The angel Gabriel again said, “Read.” And the prophet said, “I can’t.” So this went back and forth a couple of times and then he was inspired with the ability to read. And again the tradition is supposed to reinforce how important education is and if you look at our federal budget, and the amount of money we put towards education, it’s totally contradictory to the concept of how important education should be in the religion. So, on so many different levels we have missed our brand, we’re just off-brand, and that’s what’s causing some of these problems. And now, this blasphemy law that we have, where if I have a beef with my neighbor, I can go down to the police station, and say, “I heard him say something bad about the prophet,” and the cops have to come up and arrest me.

B: I heard a lot of stories of NATO and coalition troops in Afghanistan selecting certain people as partners, and those people would accuse neighbors or friends as a way to revenge or a competitive business advantage.

S: Exactly! And so the correlation to what you’re writing about, even though the U.S. didn’t directly attack Pakistan, the impact of the Soviet-era U.S. involvement and then how right away, right after the Soviets pulled back, all the funding stopped. Right, Charlie Wilson couldn’t even get a billion dollars anymore, or even 100 million dollars. It just stopped. So you have this country now, completely decimated, no money, the only infrastructure, the only crop that they have is poppy. And then the Afghans, I love those people, but they are brutal to each other as well. They just massacred each other. And then what happened in Pakistan is the blowback of the mujaheddin, the weapons, the drug trade. We may as well have been attacked.

B: Don’t you also acknowledge that there was some opportunism there, where, both at the time of the mujaheddin and then during the rise of the Taliban, there were people in the ISI and the Pakistani military and one or two of your leaders, who saw it as an opportunity to not only make some money, but to dominate Afghan politics and to use that conflict to their own advantage?

S: So, two things. What happens is, so you have a leader like, let’s say Zia with the Soviet problem, and then Musharraf with the 9/11 problem, who, both unpopular, both overthrowing a civilian government, now have lucked into the fact that the U.S. needs Pakistan’s help to go into Afghanistan. And so, these two leaders and their top-level ISI staff or generals, they all did whatever they could to stay in power. It’s all a matter of a few people staying in power. So if that means we fuck up the country with all these weapons, so be it, but we will stay in power. So that clearly happened, there was opportunism there. And then I read somewhere recently that the reason why the Pakistanis are so pro-Taliban in Afghanistan, or the ISI has been, is because they’re Pashto-speaking, we are Pashto-speaking, and the Indians were supporting the Uzbeks and Tajiks from the north. And since they were funding those guys, we felt we had to counterbalance that, who knows what came first, but there was a counterbalance to the support of the other ethnic groups to the north that the Indians were supporting. So to keep India’s control out of the western border, we needed to have the Taliban on our side.

B: Right, it’s a messy situation. What’s your sense of that whole border area with Waziristan and the whole Pashtun area? Is this another situation where Western powers like the British carved up things illicitly and illogically, and you basically have a nation or a tribe of people that, as I understand it, are ⅔ in Pakistan and ⅓ in Afghanistan, and that ultimately, those borders are so porous and the rule of law there is so thin, that you have this perpetual political issue that has been going on for a long time?

S: You have to go find the exact data point, but I think that the British guy who helped create the borders of Pakistan and India, for the new countries, I think he got there, he created the borders, never having been there before, and within 6 weeks he created these borders, and this is without Google. He did not know what he was doing. And so that is exactly why you have these tribes split by a line created by England. That’s exactly what happened.

B: And by the way, why would he know what he was doing? How in the world can any Brit understand 500 years of history and what’s happening in tribes where no Brit has ever walked the earth?

S: There were British folks there for a couple hundred years, right. So, there could be some people who knew, or provided input, but, I don’t think they were used.

B: I’m asking a lot of questions certain provocative passages in the Quran and certain provocative behaviors on the part of groups that are claiming them to be true believers, from the Islamic State to the Taliban, etc. Every Afghan I meet says Islam is a religion of peace, here is the way it teaches me, I don’t want to hurt a fly, here’s all the specific ways that our religion respects other religions and people and forbids bad behavior.

S: I think you have to put a lot of this stuff, in the Quran, into some kind of historical context. Yeah, there were some brutal, bloody battles, but if you look at it in context of what else is going on during those times, this was pretty mild. And, I think you can read the bible, and come up with how violent it is. You can read the Quran and come up with how violent it is. But at the end of the day, that’s not really the teaching, they’re just some stories that happened along the way. The teachings are very similar: peace, don’t hurt your neighbor, that kind of stuff. So the teachings are all really really similar. My father always used to joke, Do you ever wonder why Judaism, Christianity, Islam all came to that little strip of land in the Middle East? And I said, “No Pops, why?” He goes, “They’re the ones that need the most help.” [laughs] But the teachings are all so similar. People, throughout history I’m sure, have taken religion out of context to kill other people and to create fear. It’s just humans being humans.

Another interesting thing that I always try to struggle with is, when the prophet was dying, and he was trying to choose his successor, he could have chosen someone who was his relative, but he did not. He chose someone who was well-experienced, was older, and the learning from there is, leadership is not hereditary. Leadership is based on ability. But, when you look at all of these kingdoms, they are totally repugnant to that teaching. And even when you look at Pakistani politics, the political parties are not really parties. They are family club mafias, really. They keep on passing down from one to the other…it’s a mafia. Again, totally repugnant to that example that we were supposed to follow.

My 15 year old friend Fawad Mohammedi goes to the same school as the imam’s son. So, after several attempts, he arranged the meeting. I spent six hours at the mosque, talking to staff, sharing lunch, receiving a gift of black prayer beads.

First, I agree to a few ground rules. I will not use the imam’s name until he has a chance to read the interview. I will give him a chance to remove anything that is too risky to put in print. The picture we took together, which I greatly value, will not be published, nor the audio of our talk.

I have met my share of charismatic/ annoying gurus and religious leaders in my day but rarely have I met someone throwing off this much warmth. He greets me at the entrance to the prayer hall with a small entourage, thanking me for my visit. In the course of six hours, I meet a steady stream of mosque clergy and staff. One, in a particularly stylin’ outfit and headdress tells me that there is greatness in my face, and that I must come to Islam. Flattery will get him everywhere.

After the imam leads Friday prayers and counsels families, a weekly tradition, he joins me along with his son, my friend Fawad, his media producer and several staff. Maybe it’s a sort of learning moment for them as well. An American Jew in Kabul, wanting to know about Islam.

The imam admired my hat. “This is a Chitrali cap. You went to Chitral?”

After an exchange of pleasantries, we begin our hour together.

It is a great privilege for me to speak with you, imam. For you, what is the most important teaching of Islam?

We welcome you as an honest and honorable guest. Islam consists of 4 main parts, or columns (pillars). First, faith and belief. Worship and prayers. Moral attitude. And social life, how to build relations with other people. So, it’s not just belief.

The way you live your life, the way you walk in the world.

Yes, Islam has a message for each of these four parts. How we build a connection with Allah, with God. But our sense of worshiping means keeping Him always in mind, having a deep relation with Him.

Personally, how does Islam bring beauty and happiness to your life?

I didn’t follow Islam like a blind man without any research. I have researched other religions, I have compared mine with others and then I came to the conclusion that Islam is the best religion that we can apply in every part of our life. Economic, political, family, social life, psychological life. When I accepted Islam, I felt like I don’t have to worry about anything in life, no stress, no worries. Islam brought calm and happiness to my life. Being kind to any creature in the universe, animal or human.

So a theological question, as a follow up. If your faith is the one true faith, how do you respect other spiritual paths if you believe that in effect they are inferior, not the true path? (He asks his media producer to start recording video and asks if that’s OK with me.)

Humankind from the creation of the universe has passed through many phases. At the beginning, life was simple. Human life was all about feeding ourselves and staying alive. It’s like when someone gets a simple sickness, we need simple medicine. Allah’s books, scriptures and messengers are like doctors and medicines for humanity. In a specific period in history, there was a specific illness, so that prophet was sent to help the people to solve that problem. It’s like when you go to a doctor, he gives you a prescription with a…

…an expiration date.

And when you go back to the doctor, you get the new prescription, and the old ones are no longer usable to you. Allah sent messengers for different periods in history for different problems. Humankind’s problems are like diseases that need deep resolutions and solutions. When someone gets a really serious disease and he goes to a doctor, the doctor doesn’t write all the prescriptions at one time. He instructs the patient to use this medicine for ten days and then come back. After that, he writes another prescription and he says you can’t use the first medicine anymore. After this short period, he writes the permanent prescription that you should use forever. And the last prescription must be complete. And other religions and Islam are like this, the prescriptions that Allah gave to us. And then when the last religion came, the other religions are expired. And this is the new complete prescription.

I met Mohammed while waiting for the imam. He is the media producer for the mosque and produces telecasts of imam’s talks. He downloaded and programmed the Quran Explorer iPhone app for me and then proceeded to clean up some settings. Yes, I came from Silicon Valley to a Kabul mosque to get my technology sorted out. I was the first American he ever met.

Humankind’s problems are getting more serious day by day. If we look at the Christian’s bible, you cannot find resolution on the use of drugs. Or Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism. Islam has a resolution for preventing use of drugs and solving this problem in human society. In Koran, in the speech of prophet Mohammed, in Sharia. So we need a religion, a complete religion for our daily life. In the Koran, there are verses about science and technology. The Church, when Galileo spoke about his theory of the motion of the earth…

Yes, they killed him….

But in the Koran, there are verses that indirectly address the motion of Earth. In Europe, in the French Revolution, people were forced to separate law from religion. They left religion just in the framework of a church, nowhere else.

The Enlightenment. Imam, may I say, at that time there were hundreds of years of religious wars, Catholics and Protestants killing each other, and one of the reasons for the Enlightenment was to stop those wars and allow freedom of religion. Do you see any benefit in that or is that an apostacy?

In the noble Koran, Allah said there is no pressure to force someone into Islam. (The imam starts to speak in English and his son interrupts him. I congratulate him on his English and say he’s doing fine). It is totally wrong that people in the West believe that Muslims only want Islam on Earth. That is a totally wrong idea. Islam has two kinds of citizenship. One is for Muslims who live in an Islamic state and the other is non-Muslims who live in Islamic states and those who live outside Islamic countries. The policy of Islam and its citizens is equal about their rights and laws, for Muslims and non-Muslims. An example of this equality is if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, he will be punished according to the laws of Islam and he must be killed. Muslims and non-Muslims must be treated with respect.

There are radical Islamist groups in the world now, the Taliban, the Islamic State, Boko Haram, al Qaeda that seem to justify violence against non-believers or Muslims who don’t measure up to their standards. Why does this kind of radical, more violent understanding of Islam seem to be spreading?

You started our conversation by asking me about Islam. Islam totally differs from what these Muslims are doing today. Those Taliban, radical groups, they have their personal ideas, you should ask them why are they doing such things. Is what they are doing in the Koran, did Allah say so, to kill people, to murder non-Muslims? You should ask them. (I am not looking forward look forward to that opportunity…) It’s all a reaction against global policies. For example, I ask you, do Palestinians have the right to live in their territories?


Yes, and I think there is a similar issue with Jewish fundamentalism, Jews in Israel saying something very similar to Muslim fundamentalists. There is a song, Exodus, that goes, “This land is mine, God gave this land to me.” They believe that God gave this land to them. So they owe Palestinians nothing, This seems a big problem in the world, where people are saying I have the truth and you don’t, so I have a divine right to oppress you.

The world accepts that Palestinians should live with them, they should make a state, Germany agrees with them, France, England, Russia, but the United States doesn’t accept them. The US accepts and supports Zionist policy. Why are they doing so? If they are doing so, Muslims must react. When the US attacked Iraq, what was the reason that they destroyed the Iraqi government? And now, they are seeing the reaction (ISIS) to what they did. There is no problem in the world between people and religions. The problem is the wrong ideas and the wrong policies against Muslims, against humanity.

What change would you like to see in US foreign policy, in terms of the way the US approaches the world?

The Afghan nation is thankful for the help and support the United States gave in its struggle against the Soviet Union. During the Soviet-Afghan war, American had a goal of defeating the Soviet Union but after the battle was finished, the US policy toward Afghanistan changed. For example, Osama bin Laden was traveling to Pakistan and Islamic groups were active. America was supporting them. But after the US achieved its goals, why did US policy change and become against Muslims around the world?

Many Americans think the US made a mistake by failing to assist Afghanistan in the years after the Soviets were driven out. You said two things, One, you said the US should have continued to help Afghanistan. Two, I’m curious as to why you believe the US was against Muslims. Is that because of the Iraq war? I don’t think American policy changed toward Muslims. The Persian Gulf is a major source of oil, and when Iraq invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia, many Muslim countries opposed Iraq. The second Iraq war is widely viewed as an inexcusable mistake.

Protesters demand that Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi resign at Tahrir Square in Cairo July 1, 2013. REUTERS/Mohamed Abd El Ghany

That was all about the battlefield, the field of war. But in the political field, with American policy in Algeria, there was a democratically elected government. Islamists were elected to run the government. Why were America and European countries opposed? The same in Egypt, when Mubarak fell, there was a peaceful and democratic election, why did the the US support Sisi, Israel helped the government and the Muslims were ruined there. Why did America do that?

Well, you are talking about Algeria and Egypt. In Egypt, I agree that it is problematic to promote democracy and then bring down the democratically elected government. But while the US provides military aid, it did not invade Egypt. The Egyptian people felt there was chaos and Morsi was bringing the country to a bad position, they protested in the streets and wanted him out and there was an undemocratic solution, and yes, the US did not prevent it, but this was Egyptians coming to a political resolution in their country.

The muezzin begins the call to prayer. The imam apologizes that he must go and asks me if I need more time. I tell him I have a few more questions. The final part of our discussion will be posted shortly. And, for an excellent interactive look at the Egyptian revolution, check this out from Al Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2013/07/20137493141105596.html

First, the begats.

Staying with Farshid begat my meeting with Mr. W which begat my meeting with Will Everett. Mr. W prefers to stay anonymous. When I engage Afghans publicly, as I’m here to harvest interesting stories, Mr. W says to me, “Not a good idea.” I trust Mr. W as he has been here a dozen years.

I am weirdly out of shape. I walk a lot. And as alcohol is largely verboten here, lots of calories unconsumed. The occasional surprise showing of mead, homemade rose wine, rum, Johnnie Walker Double Black. I am looking forward to Southeast Asia beaches and yoga.

Will works for Roots for Peace, one more extraordinary Non-Governmental Organization here, quietly doing transformative work. http://rootsofpeace.org/programs-page/afghanistan  Demine-replant-rebuild. They clear landmines, provide farming resources such as seedlings, fertilizer and tools, and offer training to increase crop yields. Mines to Vines.

I share that with you because Will, a former NPR reporter, says he doesn’t give a shit about anonymity. Will arrives at the Kabul Serena Hotel lobby, where he recognizes me, a westerner pecking away on a MacBook Air. The other people in the lobby are either behind the reception counter or carrying automatic weapons.

At Ghazi Stadium Saturday. I left my sunglasses in the taxi on the way. Or in the hideous men’s toilet with non-operational plumbing. The Taliban used the stadium for public executions back in the day.

Mr. W arrives and we dine at the Asian fusion restaurant Wild Rice. The food is great. Nasi Goreng, Teriyaki Chicken and Sweet sand Sour Fish. The Thai soup is excellent as well, but doubles the cost of the entree, so, a strategic error. Will suggests a possible trip to Mazar-i-Sharif, where US and Northern Alliance forces began their drubbing of the Taliban in 2001. I suggest my interest in Panjshir Valley. He promises to keep me posted on his plans. And he mentions his neighborhood swimming pool, which sounds splendid. I need a place to work out. Near the City Center, there is a huge banner advertising a kickass gym on the second floor. When I climbed the stairs, there was rubble, and a fellow with a gun telling me to get lost.

Mr. W buzzes my phone as he rolls up to the house. I say goodbye to the guard, and get in. He has a Skype call with clients and asks if I’m willing to be late. We call Will, who informs that he has to be off to dinner by 8, so I get out for a taxi, and agree to meet W later. The taxi driver claims to know where we are going but stops to check with passersby every twenty yards to get new directions. I finally have Will’s building guard walk him though it. Great. He hangs up and asks someone for directions on each block anyway. My dad, Sol, was a New York taxi driver for two decades. I prefer to think he knew where the fuck he was going most of the time.

!  have tea with Will and his colleague Hamid, and we truck off to the pool. I’m excited, less so after Will suggests that the pool is heated, kinda, but after a minute of temperature shock, the water is just fine.

 ——–

The place is jammed. Do I need to mention that Afghan pools are not co-ed? I was going to take my swimsuit. Will said it’s not needed as one is provided, which did not sound appetizing. “Bring your own unless it’s eurotrash bikini in which case leave it home.”  I assure him, “I aspire to euro trash, but till then, my swimsuit is, sadly, rather conventional.”

Photo from the days when the Taliban terrorized Kabulis with public shaming and murder at Ghazi Stadium. Because, you know, God told them to.

The rundown on getting in: Register at the front desk and get a blue swimsuit and locker key. Trade your shoes for slippers. I ask if there are any Afghan customs regarding changing and he answers, helpfully, “Just don’t show your junk.” There is an odd changing station in the midst of each locker area, a three-sided, waist-high wooden structure allowing for modest changing. There is lots of noise and humidity. Mr. W shows up to join us.

I am the only one in the house wearing goggles and, to minimize the torment, i jump right in the pool. It’s not that bad! The bigger problem is that laps are problematic. The pool is full of mostly young guys—did I mention there are no women?—and Kabulis can’t swim. It is a landlocked country and swimming pools are a hot new thing, or so I’m told.

I am not a good swimmer. I love swimming but am not good at it. Kind of like dancing. LiAnne Mattheney, who trained for the Olympics back in the day, gave me a few tips last summer. Maybe because she noticed that I am not a good swimmer.  Nevertheless, by putting one arm before the other, kicking once a while, and, most importantly, by wearing goggles, I am an immediate celebrity. I hope this doesn’t sound racist, but everybody looks the same to me through my fogged goggles. Central Asian complexions, wet black hair, blue swimsuits and flailing arms. A Russian-looking fellow, stout and thirty-ish, let’s call him The Tajik, sheepishly floats my way and asks for a lesson. I laugh, loudly. Listening to cues for English comprehension from the way he phrases his question, I insist, “I’m a terrible swimmer. I have nothing to teach you. You must be thinking I’m someone else.” Disappointed, he makes small talk and I swim away.

An everyday sight in Kabul: a drone floating over the stadium. From this distance, it can recognize your face.

A skinny younger guy, with a wide toothy grin, maybe early twenties (he had wet hair, a Central Asian complexion and a blue swimsuit) excitedly swims up and declares, “You are very good swimmer. Teach me.”

“I can’t teach you. I am a very poor swimmer.”

“Then, how can I learn?” he asks, perplexed, still smiling.

I offer a solution, “Hire a teacher,” then swim away.

I’m such a wimp that the aimless splashing and colliding in the deep end motivates me to swim in the middle of the pool, hugging the cable divider.  I come up for air and three men surround me. The Tajik, Toothy Grin and a snarky teenage guy (let’s call him Kabul Wiseguy). They have come to petition me for a swimming lesson. I see Mr. W and wave, but Will is nowhere to be seen, nor Hamid. I offer another solution. “You know, there are hundreds of videos on YouTube,” I suggest. “I would suggest you watch and learn, one lesson at a time.”

Toothy Grin has a better idea. “No, I watch you. You are a master swimmer. I want you to teach me.”

All three wait patently, and then, i remember LiAnne’s three tips. Don’t take your head out of the water when you breath. Cup your hands. I forget the third, but do remember something I learned from a Tim Ferriss post about extending your body.

They are enthralled and go splashing away. The Tajik calls out at me, completely ignoring everything I showed him. “Look, look at me,” he shouts, excitedly as he plunges his way to the other side of the pool.

“You’re doing great,” I shout back, raising thumbs up in the locally accepted sign of American approval.

Me and Afghanistan’s national football coach at the Herat-Mazar match at Ghazi, which proves I’m, you know, a sportsman. Herat, Assef’s team, loses 1-0. Boo.

I am now the pool’s Great American Master Swimmer. An athletic, caramel-skinned good-looking teenager challenges me to a race. I haven’t raced since I knew I could beat my young daughters. But I agree and we race across the pool. I suddenly am very serious about this and swim my heart out. It’s a tie. He is very proud of himself. “Again?” We take a minute and race again. Half way through i feel a collision and when i arrive, The Tajik and his two friends are up in arms.

“He cheated,“ The Tajik yells at Caramel Handsome and a crowd gathers, laughing and jostling. There is a lot of physical roughhousing in the pool area. I rest from my olympian racing effort and chat with a small group of guys. “Afghans are good people, very friendly,” says The Tajik. And, then, because I can’t resist, I ask the three guys before me what they think of the US presence. There are the usual answers: We love Americans. Thank you for your sacrifices here. We want you to stay.

One fellow works for the Ministry of Finance. “Really?” I ask. “So what happened to that $900 million that went missing?”

He snorts, “What do you think happened? Someone took it.”

“Did Karzai have anything to do with it?”

“Of course he did.”

A few feet away from our small group of eight or nine is a tightly wound muscular fellow sitting cross-legged on the lip of the pool. He is saying something to me in Dari and snickering to his four or five friends. He isn’t happy.

The Tajik says, “I told you. Most Afghans are good, but some bad. Forget him.”

I ask Angry Buddha’s friend what he is saying.  A thin, pale, earnest fellow in his late twenties tells me, “He says Americans are murderers. You kill many people in Afghanistan.”

I wade closer. Angry Buddha is brooding and does not speak English. “Ask him if he thinks all Americans should leave the country.”

Pale Earnest translates in Dari. “He said you are on Muslim land and soon we will have a caliphate.”

I’ve spent weeks developing a liberal-minded narrative as to how the whole caliphate idea is a paranoid construct of Fox News and AM Radio.

Pale Earnest is speaking to my right. He seems quite nice and studious and proceeds to tell me that everything’s all good, as there will be a worldwide Muslim caliphate under Sharia law, but that all religions will be respected as Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Angry Buddha wants to know where I’m from. I lean in, and say, “San Francisco. California.” Then, for no particular reason, “I’m an American Jew.”

Buddha stops speaking. He doesn’t know what to say. I’ve confused his neural circuitry. We have drawn a crowd. I suspect my swim is over. Mr. W walks by and gives me a look, though I am not sure what to make of it. I elaborate, helpfully:

“Tell him i have a question for him. If Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, what is its view on Judaism and what is his personal attitude toward Jews?”

Angry Buddha goes on a long rant, translated roughly as, we don’t want Americans here, Mohammed is God’s last prophet, other religions are tolerated but they have expired.

 ——–

A gift of prayer beads graciously gifted from the mullah’s staff during my visit to the Wazir Akhbar Khan mosque.

The next day, during my visit to the mosque, the mullah uses the same word. Expired. It was explained to me this way: when you are sick, the doctor gives you a series of prescriptions and then there is one final prescription. That final prescription is Islam. God has sent many prophets, but Mohammed is the last one and the Koran and its related scriptures are now all you need.

I pressed him. “You didn’t answer my question. What is your attitude toward Jews?”

No answer. Pussy.

I submerge for a few seconds and swim a few yards, then return. “Many American Jews and Israelis want justice for the Palestinian people. But, don’t you see? Jewish fundamentalists believe the same thing you do. That they’re the chosen people. That God gave their land to them. And that since God gave them the land, they can fuck you up if you try to take any of it back. There’s a song called ‘Exodus.’ You ever hear of it?”

Blank stares all around. I sing the opening verse. “This land is mine, God gave this land to me. This brave and ancient land to me…”

Pale Earnest interrupts and tries to explain, no, that was the religion of the old prophets, the one that EXPIRED, but with Islam, we have the final revelation and…

“I heard this before.” I realize I’m getting upset and in brief moments of lucidity realize that the way we do debate where I grew up is different from the way things are communicated in public here. “The Jewish fundamentalists say they own the truth.  And you don’t. In my country, Christian fundamentalists say they are saved and if you don’t believe what they believe that God will torment you forever. That means every Muslim, every one of you in this pool, God will roast you for all eternity because of what you believe. Don’t you see? You people have been fucking killing each other for three decades without end. Yes, the Americans killed civilians and…”

“Do you think America is an occupier?” challenges Angry Buddha, seeking rhetorical supremacy in front of his semi-literate friends.

Trick question. “Of course I do. We are occupying your country. The difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is that, we invaded Iraq based on lies, mostly motivated by its oil, and caused the violent unnecessary deaths of over one hundred thousand civilians. Here at least we have been invited to stay.”

“We don’t want you to stay,” says Angry Buddha’s friend, standing in the pool next to me. “Karzai said he wanted you to go.”

“Bullshit,” I say. “That’s bullshit. That’s for domestic politics. If Karzai or Ghani and Abdullah and most Afghans say we want you out now, we would leave. Your government, imperfect and corrupt as it may be, wants us for our security presence.”

“We want you for your money,” says Finance Ministry guy.

“OK, then for our money. I have no doubt that my country has military interests here, regional political interests here, economic interests here. But you’re missing the point, you’re not listening  to me.”

 ——–

The crowd is now two or three layers thick. I don’t see Mr. W or Will anywhere.

“The Uzbeks kill the Tajiks who unite with the Turkomen to kill the Pashtun who claim Sunni is the one true faith while they kill the Hazara Shia. When do you have enough? Forget the caliphate. Believe what you want, and respect and love your brother. This tribal bullshit, claiming God is blessing your misery and slaughter is killing the world.”

Angry Buddha’s three friends pull him up and away and two others throw Pale Earnest into the pool. Innocent homoerotic fun.

I think, time to leave and lift myself out of the pool. Will had said he was going to the salt bath. I walk in the direction he had pointed and find a door and a young man with a shovel. There’s no one inside. I walk in, and it’s a small room, like a cave, with two rows of lights, three small orange bulbs to a set. Two young men in swim trunks enter.

“What do I do?” I ask.

“There’s a charge, says the younger one.

“Yeah, whatever, what do I do?”

The shovel guy digs a rectangular foxhole for me. “Looks like a grave,” jokes the older, twentysomething guy.

I’m buried up to my head in salt, and they both leave. I’m not sure what a salt bath does, but it better do something good because it starts to sting after a while, on my shins and under my thighs. After an indeterminate stretch of time, what feels like twenty minutes but is likely ten, I decide that being buried in salt in an isolated room is not necessarily good for my health, so I lift myself out and walk to the shower outside the room. The hot water feels delicious as the salt melts into and off my skin.

In the shower room, carefully honoring Will’s admonition not to show my junk, I walk under the shower in my ancient swimsuit next to, of all people, Angry Buddha.  He glowers but says nothing and ignores me. Pale Earnest takes up the shower space to my right and goes on about the caliphate again. Because, you know, this time he’s gonna convince me what a swell idea it is. “The world will one day realize the truth and become Muslim.”

I turn to him, and see the sincerity in his face. “No, it won’t. Everyone thinks they have the truth and the world is exhausted from people trying to lord it over each other, trying to impose their will and their ideology by violence. And, I gotta tell you, pal, my country has been doing it for years because we think that WE are the instruments of divine providence, and we got much bigger weapons than you do and lots more of them.”

We banter back and forth and continue the conversation at my locker. Several of my pool pals swap Facebook, email, mobile and web site information with me.

 ——–

Later, Mr. W admonishes me. “Not a good idea.” He gives me some specific instructions. “If you meet any of them, meet in a public place, like City Center, where there is plenty of security. Don’t tell them where you are staying or when you are leaving. And don’t use my name or Will’s in any conversations.”

I protest that I did not intend to incite trouble.

“You’re probably fine because you’re leaving. The rest of us have to live here.”

At that moment, for the first time, I think, maybe it’s time to go. But finding what grievances and truths lie in the fierce Afghan heart seems worth the effort.